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What format do you prefer?
| WEKAF STYLE |
[ 3 ] |
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20% |
| PADDED STICK |
[ 8 ] |
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53% |
| BLACK EAGLE / DBMA |
[ 2 ] |
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13% |
| OLD SCHOOL |
[ 0 ] |
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0% |
| ALL OF THE ABOVE |
[ 2 ] |
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13% |
Total Votes : 15 |
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| Pat OMalley |
 Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:23 am |
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Site Admin
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 1025
Location: Everywhere
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mike-a wrote: I'm not liking the looks of Pat's response that much 
Rick, I may have some other big seminar news for the early new year (or two actually, but one is more likely than the other).
I'll let you know who when it's confirmed.
Best regards
Pat |
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I am a diplomate for peace, but there comes a time when you have to use full contact sign language for the hard of hearing |
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| Rick_nz |
| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:57 pm |
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Site Admin
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 1167
Location: Levin,New Zealand
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Hey Pat,
If you click on Mike A's www symbol,you will go to his blog,and you will see on the right side of his page under links you will see "my training log"
Cheers
Riki |
_________________
YBIFMA
"Riki the PR Man"
“We have but one life and I intend to enjoy mine”.
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| NiickR |
| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:56 am |
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Guest
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I've not voted as I've not competed.
IMHO something where you can get hurt, but dont have to worry about work the day after is a good balance for a regular sport. |
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| mike-a |
| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:51 pm |
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Junior Instructor
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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I know what you're saying Niick. I used to, some years ago, train in a karate style that was, shall we say "liberal" with the contact. (Think kyokushinkai, but with punches to the head, grappling and the occasional headbutt). It was not uncommon for a few people to visit A+E each month. This was fine for some of the guys, who were basically bouncers and the like, but for folks who had to have fine motor skills or deal with the public, it wasn't so good. Black eyes and broken noses tend to
As a result the school was very top-heavy in grades, and only 3 or 4 new members each year would last. That would barely balance the number of people who would leave each year, due to family, work whatever.
Very hard to grow the group, or get the public involved. |
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| Lucy O'Malley |
| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:00 pm |
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Guest
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I remember a few years ago now, when I used to turn up to work with bruises all up my arms and cuts to face and hands etc and my boss used to say depending on how bad I looked...."we have Clients coming in tomorrow, can you wear a long sleeve top" or " we have Clients coming in tomorrow can you come in later when they have gone" Basically along the lines of make yourself scarce especially if it was last minute I was sent packing to lunch whatever time it was.
Lots of love 
Lucy |
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| ap Oweyn |
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:06 pm |
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Senior Student
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Alexandria, VA
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I voted for padded stick, though I'd like to do more open padded stick sparring. The group I train with now uses padded sticks. (Well, I started bringing padded sticks to the club and encouraging people to spar. Prior to that, they weren't sparring at all.) But we've only done single stick, no gear so far. I'd like to pad up a little bit more and do single, double, long staff, knife, and empty hand. In whatever combination people like. But I haven't gotten us there yet.
I used to compete in WEKAF, but share a lot of people's misgivings that it turns into a question of speed and the expense of stick fencing, footwork, and other defensive skills.
Stuart |
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| Rick_nz |
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:00 pm |
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Site Admin
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 1167
Location: Levin,New Zealand
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Hey Stuart,
Well I have not participated in any Tournament format.
But we spar in the wekaf format with all the armour ectect on and we have been known on a few occasions to play with the black eagle type format.
Im starting to think more your way and a few other peoples views on the wekaf format.especialy when you can view footage like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwMKXd2t9qA
my first impressions was OMG WTF?
We have not spared with the soft stick format but we are looking forward to getting some soft sticks this year and playing with the soft stick format. |
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YBIFMA
"Riki the PR Man"
“We have but one life and I intend to enjoy mine”.
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| ap Oweyn |
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:16 pm |
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Senior Student
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Alexandria, VA
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Rick_nz wrote: Hey Stuart,
Well I have not participated in any Tournament format.
But we spar in the wekaf format with all the armour ectect on and we have been known on a few occasions to play with the black eagle type format.
Im starting to think more your way and a few other peoples views on the wekaf format.especialy when you can view footage like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwMKXd2t9qA
my first impressions was OMG WTF?
We have not spared with the soft stick format but we are looking forward to getting some soft sticks this year and playing with the soft stick format.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I see in that format too. In fact, I competed in double stick once or twice. I'm not sorry to have done WEKAF by any measure. It's a good test of stamina and wotnot. But with all that padding, it's not a good indication of what getting bashed with a stick is all about. Nevermind translation over to the blade.
One thing I've noticed in sparring generally, including WEKAF but also the padded stick we've done lately, is the tendency to go sniping, for lack of a better term. People dance around in a safe range until an opening presents itself. Then it's "damn the torpedoes" as you drop down for a quick backhand to the guy's knee while he does the same to your head. Maybe one of you hit. Maybe both. But I'm surprised that there isn't more stick-on-stick work.
To be clear, it's a good hit if you can get it clean. No sense complicating matters if you can just drop and smack him in the kneecap. But you don't generally get off scot free doing that. You generally eat something yourself for your trouble. At least in my experience. So I'd like to see more use of the stick to block, clear a path, gather tactile information about the other guy's intent, things like that. It's part of what I really enjoyed about fencing. The sword is used for a great deal more than just landing the hit.
Stuart |
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| Rick_nz |
| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:56 am |
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Site Admin
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 1167
Location: Levin,New Zealand
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Hey Stuart,
I believe the way we spar Wekaf style is right as in we fight as if we have no armour on, so there is no sacrificing shots for a shot or jumping round like a Rabbit and leaping up like a frog. Fighting with the mentality of no armour on (while having armour on) keeps it real as such. Seeing footage like the link I posted can be disheartening to newbie fighters like me, who wish to participate in this format of fighting, as you train for the rules to be one way, but what can be seen in the footage is something completely different.
I have seen footage of Pat in his younger day fighting Wekaf and all his strikes are specific and he uses evasive –blocking movements, setting up thigh strikes by blitzing up top and then power striking the thighs.
Then I have seen recent footage as such (in the you tube thread) of Pat sparring soft stick, he spars in the same format, I’m presuming (mmm we know what happens when a person presumes  )with the mentality of fighting with no armour,
My feeling is if you are going to go “Dam the torpedoes” you need to be protecting yourself right from the word go, through the whole movement. I have seen some footage (sorry I have no link for this footage) from some of the dog brothers going in like “dam the torpedoes” and the guys are just getting wasted cause they just drop there guard, not a pretty sight, but I suppose a lesson learnt eventually |
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YBIFMA
"Riki the PR Man"
“We have but one life and I intend to enjoy mine”.
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| Pat OMalley |
| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:19 am |
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Site Admin
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 1025
Location: Everywhere
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Your right Rick, you have to treat all the formats as if you have no armour on, this way you can learn valuable lessons, and no matter how the other person fights (dam the torpedoes) you will win out in the end.
I sparred my old freind Percival again when we were in Cebu (had not fought him since 1995) and he said the same thing he always say's "you hit hard" but now he notices I am less agressive and more technical, well that comes with age I think.
No matter what the format, WEKAF, Padded Stick, Black Eagle, I always try to fight as I would without the gear, obviously you have to make certain adjustments for the rules and the opponent, but I personally will not sacrifice my techniques and real fighting skills just to accomadate the rules.
Some people unfortunately see the sport as the be all and end all and go hell for leather and disregard the strikes they are receiving because they have armour on, this is also partially due to their opponent too who all to often has the same attitude and they think they cant get hurt because of the armour. Well I will spar them hahaha! and they will be thankful they had the armour on.
Look at some of the old school WEKAF fighters such as myself (no bragging), Percival, and even Lucy. Watch them fight WEKAF style and it is a whole different ball game, you can see the art and you can see the skill but that is why they have the reputation they have. How many WEKAF world champions names really stick out as being the top fighters of their time. Not many, I can count them on both two hands, almost.
Pat O'Malley
Percival Pableo
Lucy O'Malley
Danny Guba
Steve Wolk
Frederick Con Con
Vince Palumbo
Eva Canete
John Harvey
These guys were the big guns, when they fought everyone watched. How many world champions have there been in WEKAF, too many to mention, but how many really stick out. Only a handfull and the one thing they all have in common is they fight as if they had no armour on.
As they say, win or lose you only get out of it what you put in. If you rely on the armour to stop the pain then you never really get the jist of what the sparring is all about. Sparring full contact in safety but trying to learn the valuable skills of real fighting.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
YBIFMA
Pat |
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I am a diplomate for peace, but there comes a time when you have to use full contact sign language for the hard of hearing |
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| Rick_nz |
| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:06 pm |
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Site Admin
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 1167
Location: Levin,New Zealand
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Pat OMalley wrote: No matter what the format, WEKAF, Padded Stick, Black Eagle, I always try to fight as I would without the gear, obviously you have to make certain adjustments for the rules and the opponent, but I personally will not sacrifice my techniques and real fighting skills just to accomadate the rules.
Some people unfortunately see the sport as the be all and end all and go hell for leather and disregard the strikes they are receiving because they have armour on, this is also partially due to their opponent too who all to often has the same attitude and they think they cant get hurt because of the armour. Well I will spar them hahaha! and they will be thankful they had the armour on.
Look at some of the old school WEKAF fighters such as myself (no bragging), Percival, and even Lucy. Watch them fight WEKAF style and it is a whole different ball game, you can see the art and you can see the skill but that is why they have the reputation they have. How many WEKAF world champions names really stick out as being the top fighters of their time. Not many, I can count them on both two hands, almost.
As they say, win or lose you only get out of it what you put in. If you rely on the armour to stop the pain then you never really get the jist of what the sparring is all about. Sparring full contact in safety but trying to learn the valuable skills of real fighting.
 Well said Pat,
there is a big differnce between old footage(some of the names Pat mentions) and todays footage(like the link i posted).And thats a real shame concidering the format is meant to be progressing. 
I remember when we first got our armour,man we stick bashed (as you do  )
it was a big thrill,but then realizing what we were doing,we slowly changed the way to like the old ways of fighting with the mentality of no armour.
A big help in changing our way of fighting was footage of the likes of Pat,and reading threads by the likes of Pat and a guy in the states called Bart (Doce pares player & a wekaf champ) |
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YBIFMA
"Riki the PR Man"
“We have but one life and I intend to enjoy mine”.
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| ap Oweyn |
| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:20 pm |
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Senior Student
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Alexandria, VA
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From a personal perspective, when I fought WEKAF (about 15 years ago), I didn't do a very good job behaving as if it were no armour. Now that I'm thinking about it more, I think that's mostly a personal shortcoming. I was thinking "the armour allowed me that luxury." But it really didn't allow that much luxury. It bloody well hurt at times. I think, though, that I put more stock in being able to endure the punishment than being able to defend it. In retrospect, that's kinda stupid.
Stuart |
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| Pat OMalley |
| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:28 pm |
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Site Admin
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 1025
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Bart Hubbard, ah! another good player. ANd Regie Beuford (SP?) from New York, again another old school player.
AS long as you learn good attributes from the sport, and treat the sport just as a learning tool, whether you get a medal or not, you have already won one thing. Expeariance.
Sport I feel is very important for 2 reasons.
1. It helps promote the art to the general public.
2. Gives you a safe environment to pressure test certain skills.
As they say, sport is a way for warriors to test their skills in times of peace, for when it comes to war then you will get no more practice time, and your skills will truely be tested.
The Olympics was originally a sporting version of battlefeild skills. Grappling, Boxing, Discus, Javalin, Hop Skip Jump (Useful for leaping small rivers ditches and streams), hammer throwing, shot put. Running, pole valuting, long jump, (another way of traversing rivers and ditches).
Battlefield skills are the birth place of most sports and most sports are a training tool for battlefield skills.
Who would you be more worried up against, an FMAer who does not do sport and is good at drills, or an FMAer who does the art but also competes in the sport and pressure tests their skills???
That's why I always smile when people say, "we don't do sports, we only train for the street and our techniques would be banned in sports as we train to kill". Well most of my techniques are banned, a few got banned because I was good at them too  .
This was said to me recently by an FMA Master. Sports are good because you have to fight full contact in a controlled environment, when you are out on the street you are now able to control your actions and with that control your opponent without losing your head. Lose your head and you lose the fight.
I always say, just because you can fight within certain rules, does not mean you have to adhere to those rules once the opponent decides not to adhere to them, but the advantage you do have is you have become effective within the rules, just think how much more effective you will be when no one is allowed to restrict what you can do 
Like drills, sparring and sports are important tools that should not be neglected, but don't misunderstand or misuse the tools as they will not work properly. You never undo a screw with a plastering trowel, just in the same manner you don't plaster a wall with a drill.
YBIFMA
Pat |
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| ap Oweyn |
| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:24 am |
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Senior Student
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Alexandria, VA
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Pat OMalley wrote: Bart Hubbard, ah! another good player. ANd Regie Beuford (SP?) from New York, again another old school player.
Burford. He pummeled me in San Francisco many years ago. Nice bloke though. Invited me to train with them if I was ever out that way again. (I haven't been, unfortunately.)
Stuart |
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| jonbroster |
| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:55 pm |
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Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 149
Location: Nottingham England
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Pat OMalley wrote: That's why I always smile when people say, "we don't do sports, we only train for the street and our techniques would be banned in sports as we train to kill". Well most of my techniques are banned, a few got banned because I was good at them too .
This reminds me of an incident a few years ago when a stand-up/battle-field/killer techniques etc etc ju jitsu guy turned up to my BJJ class. He had never really had a pull around,but was convinced of his fighting ability, so my instructor old him to:
"Have a go with Jon here; he won't mind if you try to gouge out his eyes!"  (I wished he had asked me first!!)
I spent the first minute or so with my eyes clamped shut, but I had no problem taking him down and tapping him out repeatedly. After a while I relaxed and did even better.
My feeling is that full contact sparring of any king (boxing, wrestling, BJJ, judo, eskrima) gives you above all the ability to do stuff against a trained, resisting opponent. If you can throw a judo player or punch a boxer, you are doing pretty well. Likewise, if you can keep an armoured opponent at long range with a stick, or come inside and smash him up, you are on the right track.
My feeling is that the WEKAF stuff suffers from the problem of the other guy not playing the same game - ie you are doing it for real and they are just pillowfighting. At least with a padded stick people tend to respond to being hit (because it hurts).
Jon |
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